I’ve written for various national publications about some of the most controversial topics in America, but nothing gets more carnal pushback than when I state that it’s wrong for parents to hit their children.
Spanking by a parent is a sign that they're not emotionally regulated enough to avoid hitting out in frustration, or they're not emotionally mature enough in their communication to set a boundary without posturing and dominance. Since our children learn emotional regulation and maturity from US, when they see us not being able to regulate, how on Earth are they going to learn regulation or emotional growth? And frequently the thing we're trying to 'beat out of them'...is a lack of emotional regulation. A better example of trying to fight fire with gasoline I have never seen
I was spanked with a wooden spoon, after waiting for my dad to get home and do it, about 5 times as a child. I deserved every time and I never committed the offense again.
My son on the other hand, is much, much more troublesome than I ever was. He probably deserves to be beaten with a belt regularly, but he'd be taken away if I did that, so I have to use other methods. Regular spanking doesn't really work. I do my best, hoping he doesn't go too nuts when he gets older. I hooe and pray that God shows me the path to take.
When I see these anti-spanking screeds, I know it is a dead giveaway that the writer has VERY compliant kids. I know what that is, most kids I encounter are far and away more naturally compliant than mine is. My son has to be in the top 1% for irascibility, making it really tough to find good advice from other parents. Stuff that works with their kids, doesn't work with mine.
I have spoken to a couple of men over the years who had extremely difficult kids, their advice basically amounted to "hope and pray", which is what I do.
I will tell you one thing....having a gentle conversation with my kid about his behavior has NEVER worked, ever. I've tried it again and again and again.
I'm genuinely curious...what sort of irascability is he demonstrating? Does he have problems obeying commands? Because the thing is, he could actually be failing to understand them, lack a certain level of executive function development in order to carry them out, or not be at the right level of maturity to be able to carry them out. He might not be remembering them correctly because he's a bit inattentive (that's my personal failing lol). There could be some tiny detail about the 'why' of what he's doing or supposed to do that he fails to understand. Or he might have a demand-avoidant personality, which would make him freeze up and view demands as threats. Or maybe he feels very disconnected from you, so there's no grounds in his mind to collaborate. There could be so many different 'blocks' underlying what is showing up as being disobedient and I wonder maybe if the reason having a conversation isn't working is because you haven't hit on the right questions to ask or the right conversation to have. You surely know your child personally much better than I do (I know children and child development and have applied it with success with many children many times, but I certainly don't know your son) but I'm just considering the possibility that there could be many factors there, and saying 'dialogue doesn't work' is a bit vague when dialogue around the wrong things probably isn't going to work. Also, our children very rarely have the level of self-reflection to understand the mechanisms driving their own behaviour, so you have to be the detective, he isn't going to be able to tell you. But dialogue can be a way to find those clues. Is this detective work harder than just spanking? Yes. Is it worth it? In my opinion, yes. Also, if you keep seeing obedience as the marker of success, I feel like it's missing the point. Healthy development of children and 'getting it right' as a parent isn't measured by how often they obey you, since they'd probably obey anyone they were sufficiently terrified of, but that's not growth or maturity and it isn't going to serve them in the real world as adults: the fear response is already inborn, it's not a measure of success to activate an existing biological mechanism. No growth was achieved there. However, I can see you genuinely care about your son and are doing the best possible, and I salute you for that
Also, I just wanted to add that if your son has a demand-avoidant personality, I congratulate you: most people I know who were demand-avoidant as children and still are as adults, grew up to be exceptional leaders, creators and fearless free-thinkers. They might not be best suited for traditonal workforce roles but with the right support, that tendency to be their own authority makes them natural leaders in whatever they choose to do. I think you'll find you've got a rough diamond there: with the right polishing he'll shine very bright indeed
Also, I just wanted to add that if your son has a demand-avoidant personality, I congratulate you: most people I know who were demand-avoidant as children and still are as adults, grew up to be exceptional leaders, creators and fearless free-thinkers. They might not be best suited for traditonal workforce roles but with the right support, that tendency to be their own authority makes them natural leaders in whatever they choose to do. I think you'll find you've got a rough diamond there: with the right polishing he'll shine very bright indeed
Thanks for your response. Lots of things to consider here. I appreciate the words of hope.
However, I will add that I do believe that learning obedience is a must, especially for boys. I've seen video after video online of some young man getting shot and killed by police because he didn't think it nwas worth it to obey commands. As parents, we try to inculcate this early - it happened to my son once when he was little. I told him that he had to hold my hand in the grocery store parking lot. He didn't want to and managed to squirm away and ran in front of traffic. I ran after him and caught him (as the car that almost hit him screeched to a halt). That was one of the few times I had to swat him immediately. He had to understand how bad it was to do that. And *that time*, spanking worked. He never did that again.
I think historically, for every one "demand avoidant" kid that became some kind of great man, probably 5 others died young because of this tendency to not recognize legitimate authority. So....you are probably right, but it doesn't stop the fact that we live in a world now where such deviation from norms is no longer tolerated or rewarded. For example, our main battle is to keep him from being expelled from school. In my grandfather's world, he could be kicked out in the 8th grade and still go on to accomplish a normal life (that's what he did). Now, society gives people like that a cold shoulder.
In reality, my son should be wandering the savannah with the other boys, hunting and learning how to fight. Instead, he is shoved into a feminized classroom and told to sit down and shut up. It is really frustrating.
I truly hope he does end up as some great leader. But first, we have to keep him alive.
When my kids were very young, the twins about 5 and the eldest 8, I enacted a “prep for Grandparents coming Blip System “ a few weeks before my parents arrived for a vacation. The way it worked was, if you said or did anything that would not be appropriate to do in front of Grandpa and Grandma, anyone could “blip” you. They could also blip me. The blip is taking the tip of your index finger against the tip of your thumb and flicking it on the arm of someone, and saying “blip”.
I was a single mom and balancing discipline alone is sometimes tricky, it is hard to teach them that their treatment of ME is disrespectful… but they would get into it and teach each other. (And me) by far this was one of the most successful discipline actions ever in our house. If it felt like they were about to get fidgety at a restaurant or anywhere, I only had to put my fingers together and they would straighten up.
Sometimes it was even funny. We continued the blip system for years… I am 70 and can still blip them, and they can still blip me.
It gets their attention, if they don’t understand why they are getting blipped, it can be explained. Sometimes kids don’t know that they are getting loud or they don’t realize they are arguing or being disruptive. Having a signal is helpful.
Debbie , this is so excellent. I would think you were a teacher of young kids because what you did is you made them do an action that caused them to stop and think. You were breaking the cycle of their behavior. I was an elementary school teacher so I dealt with a lot of consequences in my elementary classroom. And of course, hitting never entered the picture. But we talked about it because other kids would talk about their home life. In my room we used things like you’ve described - a signal or a statement- we had pictures of sailing ships in different positions as our behavior chart. Instead of a stop and go light with red yellow and green we used beautiful pictures of schooners. To remind kids when they were getting off task or not following directions. So of course the top photo was of a schooner sailing smoothly. And then there was one “in the rocks”. And one was one “adrift.” In the bottom photo the ship was capsized. And my kids loved this because we talked about what each picture meant for the ship and then how it applied to our own behavior. So I gave them an opportunity to think about their behavior. I had parents tell me older siblings used these nautical expressions with younger siblings. Now this was used with kids that were in 2nd to 5th grade and is not applicable to little kids, but I’m sure something could be figured out Anyway, I applaud you for your innovation and creativity instead of resorting to spanking. Which never helps anything. And I never understood why it was OK to hit a child. Adults get arrested for hitting other adults so why is it allowable to hit children for discipline?
I owe the idea of getting attention consistently to my Mom. My Mom taught severely disabled children “trainable handicapped “ was the term at the time. These were kids that would most likely end up institutionalized if they could not adapt to the basic needs that would allow them later to be in grouped homes. That “break the cycle” concept was different for each child she taught depending upon disability. She had one severely autistic child that was diagnosed as speech and hearing impaired with vision problems. I was in awe … Mom was determined to see how far she could get. That little girl eventually spoke and could at times engage one on one. Every day on as consistent a schedule as possible in a classroom, Mom would sit in front of her and hold her hands, she would resist.. mom would persist… she would speak loudly but calmly saying the girls name. It took weeks before it was expected and not resisted. From then on that trust made additional steps easier. Every successful technique was share with the parents. Not all parents had the patience to persevere, and my mom was very compassionate about that as well. This child had parents and a brother who engaged. This was 60 years ago when autism was rare and misdiagnosed or undiagnosed altogether.
Your mother was a very special soul. Thankfully she recognized her calling. As I read the details of your story, it reminded me of the Helen Keller movie and Anne Sullivan who used unorthodox (at the time) strategies to help HER student progress and be as successful as possible.
Spanking and hitting are not the same thing. The logic behind spanking as I applied it was that disobedience can be painful. If my child ignores my command to stay out of the street it could be very painful or worse. So I introduce my child to a small sample of that pain before he experiences the greater of pain meeting with a car. But the greater issue is that I as a parent am under a biblical command to spank my child Prov. 22:15; 23:13, 14; 26:3; Ephesians 6:4;Collosians 3:21. If I discipline my child out of anger whether I spank or not it's wrong. The consequences of my child's misbehavior should be understood by both of us before the offense occurs. The comparison of spanking my girlfriend and spanking my daughter is not an equal comparison. There is an appropriate time when spanking is no longer appropriate whether it is a son or a daughter and a girl friend would never be appropriate.
The definition of hitting is bring one's hand or a tool or weapon into contact with (someone or something) quickly and forcefully.
You're hitting them. You're applying force that hurts and your child responds to the pain, often causing them to cry.
I do not believe for one second that Jesus, as much as he describes having a special place for children would be cool with hitting children. Using soft language like "spank" doesn't change what you're doing.
I communicated to my son, who was 2 at the time by slapping his hand.
Think me evil?
Judge my intent?
In his hand he held a Bobby pin and was proceeding to pry the plastic cover off of the electric plug in the wall.
Yes, he cried and I would rather he had learned that lesson of PAIN by my hand, then the one that would have stopped his heart.
As you picture the WHIP, please step away because you blanket judge something that is not always true in all situations. Careful evaluation separates the intent behind the discipline but you are dispursing godlike powers of judgmeny in using a great eraser and demonizing all parents everywhere no matter what.
No answer will make you happy and your reply to me will probably prove it. Still, my son was deeply and greatly loved and provided for even after I “hit” his hand. And when I told him not to run in front of the car…I can own my displinary tactics and he has told me he was greatfull for it too. Now don't go all Stockholm on me.
There is nothing that I can say to you because you're clearly defensive. You've already determined that I would call you evil in a disingenuous fashion.
You've rationalized all of your behavior as a perfect parent, so the purpose of your reply was not to engage in a conversation but to play the "How dare you!" game because of my cultural criticisms.
But what you don't grasp is I don't care about the feelings of the adults, including yours. I care about the children. If you have a great relationship with your child, wonderful. That's what I care about.
This article is about finding a better way to raise our kids, and if you wouldn't be so defensive and using straw men, you'd see that.
Idunno, Adam - you didn't raise me or my siblings. I know one things is for certain, I earned every single spanking I ever got (and then some).
Interestingly, out of four kids I had to raise, only one ever required it (2nd born). 1st and 3rd, literally NEVER, and the 4th only (earned and) received one. That last one came at about six years old, and it was tne only one he ever required. He's 37 now, and has been awesome since that one whack.
Regarding that 2nd child, he's 47 now, and STILL could use a spanking at times. Truths of life can be tough, yet necessary. Not all kids are equal. What must be done should be done. :)
Even counting #2, all four are MUCH BETTER than I ever even came close to. If my father had beat me with a bat (he did not - only HARD whacks on the rear), he'd have been TOTALLY justified.
With respect, I think you have it exactly backwards. The reason you don't like spanking is that you hated it as a child, which very likely means it was excessive, too often, too arbitrary, or too brutal. That's not the norm, though, the norm is a small handful of seats on the butt which are not something that big of a deal and the kid just didn't find them that bad. I don't even remember if I was ever spanked. I know it could have been, it was on the table, but I don't recall it ever happening, and that's because I was generally well behaved (at least partly bc I knew a spanking was on the table).
I think the reason people get upset at this line of argumentation is more than ALL humans were spanked for basically all of history up until the past 30ish years. And now we see kids doing things like hitting their own parents are calling their moms c*nts right to their face or swearing at their parents (all things I've seen elementary aged children do), bc they know there won't be any consequences they particularly fear. Not all kids act like that of course, but some are more willful and boundary testing than others (what we used to call a 'bad kid' but now that's probably not allowed).
Problem it needs controlled experimentation a this is unethical. The other problem is that parents only have a couple of children and they are on a very steep learning curve. I train working dogs low level violence is required they have to learn to get along if one growls at me or another dog it gets an immediate response. You get violence some where if you don't get the pups early on you end up with them being violent later and it is so much worse. We kind of see this with the current generation the first time they are exposed to violence they loose control and the outcome is way worse they don't know when to stop where as a flick on the ear early on in life may have prevented it. However the reason violence is not in the regular dog training manual is if you get it wrong you wreck the dog. It has to be controlled and never ever in anger most people do not have that level of control. I suspect that is the real issue with saying spanking a child is good idea as the average person won't do it right and has to be taken into account and the bottom 10% it would be a train wreck.
The sting from a sharp smack to the butt lasts a few seconds. The emotional pain from verbal beatings which many proudly non disciplinarians use instead lasts a lot longer. As a child, I preferred a quick smack to writing lines, being grounded, being made to sit for hours in a corner or some of the other punishments which were meted out.
Also, could we please stop using the false equivalence which equates smacking children with beating women. They are not the same thing as women are autonomous adults who are fully mentally and emotionally developed. Children are not which is why responsible adults correct their behaviour.
And there a plenty of men who proudly don't spank their children but who have no problems beating women. Doug Emhoff being a case in point.
Yes. I've seen the 3rd option. No discipline or boundaries. Resulting in entitled, self centered children who make life unpleasant for everyone around them.
Yes, typical false dichotomy. It's only abuse or nothing. No other possibility. And my abuse is better than that other type of abuse, therefore good.
I've known too many beaten children who act crazy and entitled and do whatever they want, and too many selfish entitled adults who were beaten as kids and because they were not properly trained had no way of controlling their behavior now that they were adults and abuse was now off the table to pretend it's effective.
This is a low resolution argument that doesn’t take the bigger picture into account. Trauma and abuse are largely influenced by how the child views their treatment. It’s not just what happens, but the narrative that is formed by the treatment. This is why spanking parents can have an excellent relationship with their children while the non-spanking ones can still damage their kids to no end. Silent treatment, favouritism,neglect, manipulation, etc are ways that you can inflict terrible damage without laying a finger on your child. Things have gone awry when the kid doesn’t see a clear pathway forward, regardless of what the punishment is.
Thank you thank YOU Adam for writing this! I used to defend my parents for their 'discipline' because of how 'difficult' of a child I was. It took decades for me to get it through my thick skull that it was abuse, and always will be. The last time my father ever spanked me (without explaining why of course, as always) was when I vowed to never be like him. My parents and their unresolved issues are the reasons that I'm in therapy and have the issues I do.
Oh, to think of who I'd've been had they been patient and compassionate...
and today he is a devoted husband and father to two beautiful girls. Instead we would talk to him age-appropriately to make sure he understood the meaningful consequences that would follow his actions. And there were always consequences. Importantly, my wife and I also made sure to present a united front even if we disagreed about what should follow his misbehavior. As a special ed teacher, I hear colleagues lament that school paddling is forbidden in our district. They are wrong. I deal with at-risk kids from broken homes. Trust me when I say that these children do not suffer from a lack of physical punishment; quite the opposite. Most are victims of intense and cruel abuse which makes any school corporal punishment pale in comparison reducing its power to punish or deter. It also teaches them that this is how you settle disputes and that violence is how you control others. Physical punishment may make the adult feel better momentarily but does little to nothing, or worse, for the child. So please think twice before doing anything to your child that you wouldn’t want a stranger to do.
THANK YOU! I am so tired of the bs narrative that any kid you see who is put of control is by definition "not hitting hit therefore being given no boundaries and let to run amok and become entitled" that pro-beaters (I refuse to call it by its gentler sounding euphemism) love to use while never actually knowing anything about the kid they are seeing or the circumstances. My mom tried to beat the side effects of medication out of me, her knowing about the side effects and me as a child having no idea the pills I had to take were making me hyper and messing up my ability for self control. When i grew out if the medical issue and stopped the pills, i had no issues with self control. I still struggle with neurotic issues because of it, from being unable to control myself at that age, believing myself a bad person because of it, having no way to avoid being beaten. I love her, but in spite of the beatings which were entirely unwarranted, and I think beating me is one of the things I may never forgive her for.
I’m sorry you had to go through that. I’ve seen this with my students so many times. Once, an angry mom even jumped out of her chair and slapped her son in the face during a parent conference. We were dumbstruck. She later apologized but more out of embarrassment or fear of us reporting her rather than out of genuine regret and self reflection. Generally, people do to their kids what was done to them. The honesty and self awareness you show here is how this terrible cycle is broken. Thanks for sharing.
" In what other circumstance would we accept love being expressed through hurting someone?"
Criminal justice...military training...even high school athletics.
Admittedly, it all depends on how we define terms like "hurt" and "love" but it seems to me that each of my three examples entail people enduring physical pains of some sort directed or inflicted by another for some purportedly good purpose. In the case of criminal justice, we'd more likely say that's love being expressed for the broader society, so perhaps it isn't quite as germane; but in the other two a large part (hopefully THE point) of the pain being inflicted is to better the sufferer (e.g., to make them stronger, more resilient, better able to function as a unit because they realize that their screw-ups affect not only themselves but others as well).
I'm not trying to pronounce how you (or anyone else) should or shouldn't parent. I'm just saying that corporal punishment has had a role in parenting in virtually EVERY culture on earth going back thousands of years. It's commended in Scripture (Prov. 13:24 et al.).
I think it's folly to casually discard that cloud of witnesses.
There is a uniqueness of inherent responsibility and love you're supposed to have for your child. They are literally part of you genetically.
Lots of things were done for long periods but the time length of usage doesn't make it automatically valid or proper. People confuse surviving as being the same as thriving. I know lots of abused children who appear to be doing fine today but they'd still be wrong to encourage abuse because it "worked for them".
What I'm saying is that there is a better way than how you were raised. Adults tend to grow up with Stockholm syndrome about how they were treated by their parents even though deep down, they know that it was faulty.
Also, I follow the conduct of Jesus and God's reckoning on societies that mistreat children. Am I to believe that Jesus or God, who displays a special affinity for innocent children, would encourage you to inflict pain on a child?
Proverbs is old philosophy inspired by God but the conduct of Jesus what I follow. The point of that proverb is to discipline your child and it doesn't command that you use a literal rod (or object) to hit your child. It's saying discipline them...you can do that without hitting them.
I know lots of abused children who appear to be doing fine today but they'd still be wrong to encourage abuse because it "worked for them".
True. However, the ENTIRE issue is whether or not there's a difference between "discipline" and "abuse." Your original post suggests that corporal punishment is, inherently, abuse. That's the premise I'm disagreeing with. I'm not defending abuse. I'm simply saying it isn't the same thing as discipline.
You're right that Proverbs is old philosophy. You note that the longevity of a practice doesn't necessarily make it proper. I admit that's true...but I think history ought to be a guide. We've got quite a large dataset of societies behind us that see something positive in a certain role for corporal punishment.
You reference the example of Jesus. Presumably, this is the same Jesus who forms a cord of whips, flips over tables and drives money changers from the Temple (Jhn. 2:15-17)...the same Jesus whom Paul says will "take vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the Gospel" (2 Thess. 1:8)?
You get right to the heart of the question in asking, "Would Jesus encourage you to inflict pain on a child?" I say, it would depend. For example, if my child were about to touch a hot stove and I smack their hand away. That smack might hurt...but it would be preferable to the pain and scarring of the child touching the stove. Often, the child doesn't realize that in the moment. All he or she knows is that I struck them. The knowledge and perception of a child is important, but it cannot be determinative of whether a thing is right or not. I believe we are God's children and that in His role as Father, He sometimes assigns punishments to us for our own good. As Hebrews 12:11 testifies, "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."
I don't think that's some kind of weird one-off principle that only applies to God. I suspect that's precisely why the legitimate use of discipline has been recognized by cultures all over human history. I think it's baked into the nature of Creation. It can certainly be abused (like virtually any good thing) but that doesn't mean it has no value or place.
I think I'm gonna let this be my last word on this topic for now. Thank you VERY MUCH for taking the time to hear me out and response, Adam. I wish nothing but the best for you, your family, and your continuing career.
Great answer to the old argument "but everyone everywhere beat their kids for thousands of years so there must be something good about it" and "but the bible".
Every culture engaged in slavery in some manner for thousands of years and it is even condoned in the Bible. Doesn't make it okay.
Does this question have to have a “right” answer? Can’t that be something that varies with culture and a variety of circumstances? I always feel hesitant to think we are wiser than our ancestors.
“what other circumstance would we accept love being expressed through hurting someone?”
There are people to whom this makes sense, and people to whom it is self-evidently ridiculous. I am in the second category.
No action we take in disciplining a kid would be acceptable in any other circumstance, obviously. So if we can only do to a kid what we would be allowed to do to another adult, we can’t send them to their room (false
Imprisonment) or take toys away (theft)…
Doesn’t mean I think it’s necessary. For one thing, it makes the kid associate bravery with defying their parents, which is not ideal. But this argument is absurd.
Not true. In the adult world, you go to jail or have things confiscated or pay fines for doing wrong. So we do actually do those things to other adults, and it is equivalent to what they can expect as an adult if they mess up. What we don't do is beat people as punishment.
Spanking by a parent is a sign that they're not emotionally regulated enough to avoid hitting out in frustration, or they're not emotionally mature enough in their communication to set a boundary without posturing and dominance. Since our children learn emotional regulation and maturity from US, when they see us not being able to regulate, how on Earth are they going to learn regulation or emotional growth? And frequently the thing we're trying to 'beat out of them'...is a lack of emotional regulation. A better example of trying to fight fire with gasoline I have never seen
I was spanked with a wooden spoon, after waiting for my dad to get home and do it, about 5 times as a child. I deserved every time and I never committed the offense again.
My son on the other hand, is much, much more troublesome than I ever was. He probably deserves to be beaten with a belt regularly, but he'd be taken away if I did that, so I have to use other methods. Regular spanking doesn't really work. I do my best, hoping he doesn't go too nuts when he gets older. I hooe and pray that God shows me the path to take.
When I see these anti-spanking screeds, I know it is a dead giveaway that the writer has VERY compliant kids. I know what that is, most kids I encounter are far and away more naturally compliant than mine is. My son has to be in the top 1% for irascibility, making it really tough to find good advice from other parents. Stuff that works with their kids, doesn't work with mine.
I have spoken to a couple of men over the years who had extremely difficult kids, their advice basically amounted to "hope and pray", which is what I do.
I will tell you one thing....having a gentle conversation with my kid about his behavior has NEVER worked, ever. I've tried it again and again and again.
I'm genuinely curious...what sort of irascability is he demonstrating? Does he have problems obeying commands? Because the thing is, he could actually be failing to understand them, lack a certain level of executive function development in order to carry them out, or not be at the right level of maturity to be able to carry them out. He might not be remembering them correctly because he's a bit inattentive (that's my personal failing lol). There could be some tiny detail about the 'why' of what he's doing or supposed to do that he fails to understand. Or he might have a demand-avoidant personality, which would make him freeze up and view demands as threats. Or maybe he feels very disconnected from you, so there's no grounds in his mind to collaborate. There could be so many different 'blocks' underlying what is showing up as being disobedient and I wonder maybe if the reason having a conversation isn't working is because you haven't hit on the right questions to ask or the right conversation to have. You surely know your child personally much better than I do (I know children and child development and have applied it with success with many children many times, but I certainly don't know your son) but I'm just considering the possibility that there could be many factors there, and saying 'dialogue doesn't work' is a bit vague when dialogue around the wrong things probably isn't going to work. Also, our children very rarely have the level of self-reflection to understand the mechanisms driving their own behaviour, so you have to be the detective, he isn't going to be able to tell you. But dialogue can be a way to find those clues. Is this detective work harder than just spanking? Yes. Is it worth it? In my opinion, yes. Also, if you keep seeing obedience as the marker of success, I feel like it's missing the point. Healthy development of children and 'getting it right' as a parent isn't measured by how often they obey you, since they'd probably obey anyone they were sufficiently terrified of, but that's not growth or maturity and it isn't going to serve them in the real world as adults: the fear response is already inborn, it's not a measure of success to activate an existing biological mechanism. No growth was achieved there. However, I can see you genuinely care about your son and are doing the best possible, and I salute you for that
Also, I just wanted to add that if your son has a demand-avoidant personality, I congratulate you: most people I know who were demand-avoidant as children and still are as adults, grew up to be exceptional leaders, creators and fearless free-thinkers. They might not be best suited for traditonal workforce roles but with the right support, that tendency to be their own authority makes them natural leaders in whatever they choose to do. I think you'll find you've got a rough diamond there: with the right polishing he'll shine very bright indeed
Also, I just wanted to add that if your son has a demand-avoidant personality, I congratulate you: most people I know who were demand-avoidant as children and still are as adults, grew up to be exceptional leaders, creators and fearless free-thinkers. They might not be best suited for traditonal workforce roles but with the right support, that tendency to be their own authority makes them natural leaders in whatever they choose to do. I think you'll find you've got a rough diamond there: with the right polishing he'll shine very bright indeed
Thanks for your response. Lots of things to consider here. I appreciate the words of hope.
However, I will add that I do believe that learning obedience is a must, especially for boys. I've seen video after video online of some young man getting shot and killed by police because he didn't think it nwas worth it to obey commands. As parents, we try to inculcate this early - it happened to my son once when he was little. I told him that he had to hold my hand in the grocery store parking lot. He didn't want to and managed to squirm away and ran in front of traffic. I ran after him and caught him (as the car that almost hit him screeched to a halt). That was one of the few times I had to swat him immediately. He had to understand how bad it was to do that. And *that time*, spanking worked. He never did that again.
I think historically, for every one "demand avoidant" kid that became some kind of great man, probably 5 others died young because of this tendency to not recognize legitimate authority. So....you are probably right, but it doesn't stop the fact that we live in a world now where such deviation from norms is no longer tolerated or rewarded. For example, our main battle is to keep him from being expelled from school. In my grandfather's world, he could be kicked out in the 8th grade and still go on to accomplish a normal life (that's what he did). Now, society gives people like that a cold shoulder.
In reality, my son should be wandering the savannah with the other boys, hunting and learning how to fight. Instead, he is shoved into a feminized classroom and told to sit down and shut up. It is really frustrating.
I truly hope he does end up as some great leader. But first, we have to keep him alive.
When my kids were very young, the twins about 5 and the eldest 8, I enacted a “prep for Grandparents coming Blip System “ a few weeks before my parents arrived for a vacation. The way it worked was, if you said or did anything that would not be appropriate to do in front of Grandpa and Grandma, anyone could “blip” you. They could also blip me. The blip is taking the tip of your index finger against the tip of your thumb and flicking it on the arm of someone, and saying “blip”.
I was a single mom and balancing discipline alone is sometimes tricky, it is hard to teach them that their treatment of ME is disrespectful… but they would get into it and teach each other. (And me) by far this was one of the most successful discipline actions ever in our house. If it felt like they were about to get fidgety at a restaurant or anywhere, I only had to put my fingers together and they would straighten up.
Sometimes it was even funny. We continued the blip system for years… I am 70 and can still blip them, and they can still blip me.
It gets their attention, if they don’t understand why they are getting blipped, it can be explained. Sometimes kids don’t know that they are getting loud or they don’t realize they are arguing or being disruptive. Having a signal is helpful.
Debbie , this is so excellent. I would think you were a teacher of young kids because what you did is you made them do an action that caused them to stop and think. You were breaking the cycle of their behavior. I was an elementary school teacher so I dealt with a lot of consequences in my elementary classroom. And of course, hitting never entered the picture. But we talked about it because other kids would talk about their home life. In my room we used things like you’ve described - a signal or a statement- we had pictures of sailing ships in different positions as our behavior chart. Instead of a stop and go light with red yellow and green we used beautiful pictures of schooners. To remind kids when they were getting off task or not following directions. So of course the top photo was of a schooner sailing smoothly. And then there was one “in the rocks”. And one was one “adrift.” In the bottom photo the ship was capsized. And my kids loved this because we talked about what each picture meant for the ship and then how it applied to our own behavior. So I gave them an opportunity to think about their behavior. I had parents tell me older siblings used these nautical expressions with younger siblings. Now this was used with kids that were in 2nd to 5th grade and is not applicable to little kids, but I’m sure something could be figured out Anyway, I applaud you for your innovation and creativity instead of resorting to spanking. Which never helps anything. And I never understood why it was OK to hit a child. Adults get arrested for hitting other adults so why is it allowable to hit children for discipline?
I love the Nautical signs concept!
I owe the idea of getting attention consistently to my Mom. My Mom taught severely disabled children “trainable handicapped “ was the term at the time. These were kids that would most likely end up institutionalized if they could not adapt to the basic needs that would allow them later to be in grouped homes. That “break the cycle” concept was different for each child she taught depending upon disability. She had one severely autistic child that was diagnosed as speech and hearing impaired with vision problems. I was in awe … Mom was determined to see how far she could get. That little girl eventually spoke and could at times engage one on one. Every day on as consistent a schedule as possible in a classroom, Mom would sit in front of her and hold her hands, she would resist.. mom would persist… she would speak loudly but calmly saying the girls name. It took weeks before it was expected and not resisted. From then on that trust made additional steps easier. Every successful technique was share with the parents. Not all parents had the patience to persevere, and my mom was very compassionate about that as well. This child had parents and a brother who engaged. This was 60 years ago when autism was rare and misdiagnosed or undiagnosed altogether.
Your mother was a very special soul. Thankfully she recognized her calling. As I read the details of your story, it reminded me of the Helen Keller movie and Anne Sullivan who used unorthodox (at the time) strategies to help HER student progress and be as successful as possible.
Spanking and hitting are not the same thing. The logic behind spanking as I applied it was that disobedience can be painful. If my child ignores my command to stay out of the street it could be very painful or worse. So I introduce my child to a small sample of that pain before he experiences the greater of pain meeting with a car. But the greater issue is that I as a parent am under a biblical command to spank my child Prov. 22:15; 23:13, 14; 26:3; Ephesians 6:4;Collosians 3:21. If I discipline my child out of anger whether I spank or not it's wrong. The consequences of my child's misbehavior should be understood by both of us before the offense occurs. The comparison of spanking my girlfriend and spanking my daughter is not an equal comparison. There is an appropriate time when spanking is no longer appropriate whether it is a son or a daughter and a girl friend would never be appropriate.
"Spanking and hitting are not the same"
"Small sample of pain"
The definition of hitting is bring one's hand or a tool or weapon into contact with (someone or something) quickly and forcefully.
You're hitting them. You're applying force that hurts and your child responds to the pain, often causing them to cry.
I do not believe for one second that Jesus, as much as he describes having a special place for children would be cool with hitting children. Using soft language like "spank" doesn't change what you're doing.
You can discipline them without hitting them.
I communicated to my son, who was 2 at the time by slapping his hand.
Think me evil?
Judge my intent?
In his hand he held a Bobby pin and was proceeding to pry the plastic cover off of the electric plug in the wall.
Yes, he cried and I would rather he had learned that lesson of PAIN by my hand, then the one that would have stopped his heart.
As you picture the WHIP, please step away because you blanket judge something that is not always true in all situations. Careful evaluation separates the intent behind the discipline but you are dispursing godlike powers of judgmeny in using a great eraser and demonizing all parents everywhere no matter what.
No answer will make you happy and your reply to me will probably prove it. Still, my son was deeply and greatly loved and provided for even after I “hit” his hand. And when I told him not to run in front of the car…I can own my displinary tactics and he has told me he was greatfull for it too. Now don't go all Stockholm on me.
There is nothing that I can say to you because you're clearly defensive. You've already determined that I would call you evil in a disingenuous fashion.
You've rationalized all of your behavior as a perfect parent, so the purpose of your reply was not to engage in a conversation but to play the "How dare you!" game because of my cultural criticisms.
But what you don't grasp is I don't care about the feelings of the adults, including yours. I care about the children. If you have a great relationship with your child, wonderful. That's what I care about.
This article is about finding a better way to raise our kids, and if you wouldn't be so defensive and using straw men, you'd see that.
Idunno, Adam - you didn't raise me or my siblings. I know one things is for certain, I earned every single spanking I ever got (and then some).
Interestingly, out of four kids I had to raise, only one ever required it (2nd born). 1st and 3rd, literally NEVER, and the 4th only (earned and) received one. That last one came at about six years old, and it was tne only one he ever required. He's 37 now, and has been awesome since that one whack.
Regarding that 2nd child, he's 47 now, and STILL could use a spanking at times. Truths of life can be tough, yet necessary. Not all kids are equal. What must be done should be done. :)
Even counting #2, all four are MUCH BETTER than I ever even came close to. If my father had beat me with a bat (he did not - only HARD whacks on the rear), he'd have been TOTALLY justified.
"If my father had beat me with a bat (he did not - only HARD whacks on the rear), he'd have been TOTALLY justified."
This reads like a letter from someone suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.
Stupid issue to focus on in an age when kids are suffering from a lack of appropriate boundaries being set for them by their parents.
We're raising generations of narcissists, and it's wreaking havoc on our society.
Spanking is not.
With respect, I think you have it exactly backwards. The reason you don't like spanking is that you hated it as a child, which very likely means it was excessive, too often, too arbitrary, or too brutal. That's not the norm, though, the norm is a small handful of seats on the butt which are not something that big of a deal and the kid just didn't find them that bad. I don't even remember if I was ever spanked. I know it could have been, it was on the table, but I don't recall it ever happening, and that's because I was generally well behaved (at least partly bc I knew a spanking was on the table).
I think the reason people get upset at this line of argumentation is more than ALL humans were spanked for basically all of history up until the past 30ish years. And now we see kids doing things like hitting their own parents are calling their moms c*nts right to their face or swearing at their parents (all things I've seen elementary aged children do), bc they know there won't be any consequences they particularly fear. Not all kids act like that of course, but some are more willful and boundary testing than others (what we used to call a 'bad kid' but now that's probably not allowed).
Problem it needs controlled experimentation a this is unethical. The other problem is that parents only have a couple of children and they are on a very steep learning curve. I train working dogs low level violence is required they have to learn to get along if one growls at me or another dog it gets an immediate response. You get violence some where if you don't get the pups early on you end up with them being violent later and it is so much worse. We kind of see this with the current generation the first time they are exposed to violence they loose control and the outcome is way worse they don't know when to stop where as a flick on the ear early on in life may have prevented it. However the reason violence is not in the regular dog training manual is if you get it wrong you wreck the dog. It has to be controlled and never ever in anger most people do not have that level of control. I suspect that is the real issue with saying spanking a child is good idea as the average person won't do it right and has to be taken into account and the bottom 10% it would be a train wreck.
The sting from a sharp smack to the butt lasts a few seconds. The emotional pain from verbal beatings which many proudly non disciplinarians use instead lasts a lot longer. As a child, I preferred a quick smack to writing lines, being grounded, being made to sit for hours in a corner or some of the other punishments which were meted out.
Also, could we please stop using the false equivalence which equates smacking children with beating women. They are not the same thing as women are autonomous adults who are fully mentally and emotionally developed. Children are not which is why responsible adults correct their behaviour.
And there a plenty of men who proudly don't spank their children but who have no problems beating women. Doug Emhoff being a case in point.
What if I told you they’re both bad and there’s a better way
Yes. I've seen the 3rd option. No discipline or boundaries. Resulting in entitled, self centered children who make life unpleasant for everyone around them.
Yes, typical false dichotomy. It's only abuse or nothing. No other possibility. And my abuse is better than that other type of abuse, therefore good.
I've known too many beaten children who act crazy and entitled and do whatever they want, and too many selfish entitled adults who were beaten as kids and because they were not properly trained had no way of controlling their behavior now that they were adults and abuse was now off the table to pretend it's effective.
This is a low resolution argument that doesn’t take the bigger picture into account. Trauma and abuse are largely influenced by how the child views their treatment. It’s not just what happens, but the narrative that is formed by the treatment. This is why spanking parents can have an excellent relationship with their children while the non-spanking ones can still damage their kids to no end. Silent treatment, favouritism,neglect, manipulation, etc are ways that you can inflict terrible damage without laying a finger on your child. Things have gone awry when the kid doesn’t see a clear pathway forward, regardless of what the punishment is.
*applauds*
Thank you thank YOU Adam for writing this! I used to defend my parents for their 'discipline' because of how 'difficult' of a child I was. It took decades for me to get it through my thick skull that it was abuse, and always will be. The last time my father ever spanked me (without explaining why of course, as always) was when I vowed to never be like him. My parents and their unresolved issues are the reasons that I'm in therapy and have the issues I do.
Oh, to think of who I'd've been had they been patient and compassionate...
As a parent, I never spanked my son,
and today he is a devoted husband and father to two beautiful girls. Instead we would talk to him age-appropriately to make sure he understood the meaningful consequences that would follow his actions. And there were always consequences. Importantly, my wife and I also made sure to present a united front even if we disagreed about what should follow his misbehavior. As a special ed teacher, I hear colleagues lament that school paddling is forbidden in our district. They are wrong. I deal with at-risk kids from broken homes. Trust me when I say that these children do not suffer from a lack of physical punishment; quite the opposite. Most are victims of intense and cruel abuse which makes any school corporal punishment pale in comparison reducing its power to punish or deter. It also teaches them that this is how you settle disputes and that violence is how you control others. Physical punishment may make the adult feel better momentarily but does little to nothing, or worse, for the child. So please think twice before doing anything to your child that you wouldn’t want a stranger to do.
THANK YOU! I am so tired of the bs narrative that any kid you see who is put of control is by definition "not hitting hit therefore being given no boundaries and let to run amok and become entitled" that pro-beaters (I refuse to call it by its gentler sounding euphemism) love to use while never actually knowing anything about the kid they are seeing or the circumstances. My mom tried to beat the side effects of medication out of me, her knowing about the side effects and me as a child having no idea the pills I had to take were making me hyper and messing up my ability for self control. When i grew out if the medical issue and stopped the pills, i had no issues with self control. I still struggle with neurotic issues because of it, from being unable to control myself at that age, believing myself a bad person because of it, having no way to avoid being beaten. I love her, but in spite of the beatings which were entirely unwarranted, and I think beating me is one of the things I may never forgive her for.
I’m sorry you had to go through that. I’ve seen this with my students so many times. Once, an angry mom even jumped out of her chair and slapped her son in the face during a parent conference. We were dumbstruck. She later apologized but more out of embarrassment or fear of us reporting her rather than out of genuine regret and self reflection. Generally, people do to their kids what was done to them. The honesty and self awareness you show here is how this terrible cycle is broken. Thanks for sharing.
" In what other circumstance would we accept love being expressed through hurting someone?"
Criminal justice...military training...even high school athletics.
Admittedly, it all depends on how we define terms like "hurt" and "love" but it seems to me that each of my three examples entail people enduring physical pains of some sort directed or inflicted by another for some purportedly good purpose. In the case of criminal justice, we'd more likely say that's love being expressed for the broader society, so perhaps it isn't quite as germane; but in the other two a large part (hopefully THE point) of the pain being inflicted is to better the sufferer (e.g., to make them stronger, more resilient, better able to function as a unit because they realize that their screw-ups affect not only themselves but others as well).
I'm not trying to pronounce how you (or anyone else) should or shouldn't parent. I'm just saying that corporal punishment has had a role in parenting in virtually EVERY culture on earth going back thousands of years. It's commended in Scripture (Prov. 13:24 et al.).
I think it's folly to casually discard that cloud of witnesses.
There is a uniqueness of inherent responsibility and love you're supposed to have for your child. They are literally part of you genetically.
Lots of things were done for long periods but the time length of usage doesn't make it automatically valid or proper. People confuse surviving as being the same as thriving. I know lots of abused children who appear to be doing fine today but they'd still be wrong to encourage abuse because it "worked for them".
What I'm saying is that there is a better way than how you were raised. Adults tend to grow up with Stockholm syndrome about how they were treated by their parents even though deep down, they know that it was faulty.
Also, I follow the conduct of Jesus and God's reckoning on societies that mistreat children. Am I to believe that Jesus or God, who displays a special affinity for innocent children, would encourage you to inflict pain on a child?
Proverbs is old philosophy inspired by God but the conduct of Jesus what I follow. The point of that proverb is to discipline your child and it doesn't command that you use a literal rod (or object) to hit your child. It's saying discipline them...you can do that without hitting them.
It’s also about trust. If a child can’t trust his parents not to hurt them, who can they trust?
I know lots of abused children who appear to be doing fine today but they'd still be wrong to encourage abuse because it "worked for them".
True. However, the ENTIRE issue is whether or not there's a difference between "discipline" and "abuse." Your original post suggests that corporal punishment is, inherently, abuse. That's the premise I'm disagreeing with. I'm not defending abuse. I'm simply saying it isn't the same thing as discipline.
You're right that Proverbs is old philosophy. You note that the longevity of a practice doesn't necessarily make it proper. I admit that's true...but I think history ought to be a guide. We've got quite a large dataset of societies behind us that see something positive in a certain role for corporal punishment.
You reference the example of Jesus. Presumably, this is the same Jesus who forms a cord of whips, flips over tables and drives money changers from the Temple (Jhn. 2:15-17)...the same Jesus whom Paul says will "take vengeance on them that know not God and that obey not the Gospel" (2 Thess. 1:8)?
You get right to the heart of the question in asking, "Would Jesus encourage you to inflict pain on a child?" I say, it would depend. For example, if my child were about to touch a hot stove and I smack their hand away. That smack might hurt...but it would be preferable to the pain and scarring of the child touching the stove. Often, the child doesn't realize that in the moment. All he or she knows is that I struck them. The knowledge and perception of a child is important, but it cannot be determinative of whether a thing is right or not. I believe we are God's children and that in His role as Father, He sometimes assigns punishments to us for our own good. As Hebrews 12:11 testifies, "No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however, it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been trained by it."
I don't think that's some kind of weird one-off principle that only applies to God. I suspect that's precisely why the legitimate use of discipline has been recognized by cultures all over human history. I think it's baked into the nature of Creation. It can certainly be abused (like virtually any good thing) but that doesn't mean it has no value or place.
I think I'm gonna let this be my last word on this topic for now. Thank you VERY MUCH for taking the time to hear me out and response, Adam. I wish nothing but the best for you, your family, and your continuing career.
Great answer to the old argument "but everyone everywhere beat their kids for thousands of years so there must be something good about it" and "but the bible".
Every culture engaged in slavery in some manner for thousands of years and it is even condoned in the Bible. Doesn't make it okay.
Does this question have to have a “right” answer? Can’t that be something that varies with culture and a variety of circumstances? I always feel hesitant to think we are wiser than our ancestors.
“what other circumstance would we accept love being expressed through hurting someone?”
There are people to whom this makes sense, and people to whom it is self-evidently ridiculous. I am in the second category.
No action we take in disciplining a kid would be acceptable in any other circumstance, obviously. So if we can only do to a kid what we would be allowed to do to another adult, we can’t send them to their room (false
Imprisonment) or take toys away (theft)…
Doesn’t mean I think it’s necessary. For one thing, it makes the kid associate bravery with defying their parents, which is not ideal. But this argument is absurd.
Not true. In the adult world, you go to jail or have things confiscated or pay fines for doing wrong. So we do actually do those things to other adults, and it is equivalent to what they can expect as an adult if they mess up. What we don't do is beat people as punishment.
Bravo ❤️🔥